Summary
In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, Lisa Cooper, an experienced organizational design consultant, shares valuable insights on building effective organizational structures. Key takeaways include:
- The importance of designing structures for the business rather than for specific individuals
- The need to consider future goals when creating organizational structures
- The value of clarity in leadership and organizational design
- The benefit of taking "clarity breaks" to think strategically about the business
Lisa emphasizes the significance of putting the business and its mission first when designing organizational structures. She advises against creating roles for specific individuals, instead focusing on what the business needs to succeed. Lisa also highlights the importance of considering long-term goals, encouraging leaders to envision their organization 5-10 years in the future.
A key theme throughout the discussion is the power of clarity. Lisa borrows from Brené Brown's quote, "Clear is kind," to illustrate how clarity in strategy, structure, and roles can lead to amazing outcomes. She recommends that leaders take regular "clarity breaks" to disconnect from daily operations and think strategically about their organization and team.
The episode provides practical advice for leaders involved in organizational design, emphasizing the balance between strategic thinking and day-to-day operations. Lisa's insights offer valuable guidance for creating resilient, future-focused organizational structures.
Listen to the full episode to gain deeper insights into effective organizational design and leadership strategies.
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Show notes
Cooper People Group - Cooperpg.com
Transcript
[00:00:00] Amy Springer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Damian Bramanis, and Lisa Cooper from the Cooper People Group. Thank you for joining us
[00:00:09] Lisa Cooper:
Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
[00:00:11] Amy Springer: We'd love to kick off with understanding your story and how did you end up in org design? Uh, it's often not a direct path. So, we'd love to hear how you've ended up here.
[00:00:22] Lisa Cooper: Yes, it is a bit of an interesting story. It spans several decades. I figured after 20 years, I get to stop counting. My career really in org design is a bit broader than actually than org design. I've spent the last 20 years in developing strong, healthy, organizational teams, and spending a lot of time in the field of human resources. What that often means, is that we have to get our structure right in order for us to execute on our strategy. That is the preamble, if you will, to all of the things that we do in talent acquisition and onboarding and all of the things that come after with the employee life cycle. So, really spending some time and making sure that we have the right structure, is often where I have started. My career started— oh gosh— back in the nineties where I had the pleasure of doing a lot of, frankly, very elementary human resources functions. So, hiring, and onboarding, and employee relations, and compliance, and payroll, and all of those things. And it wasn't until I got a bit more in my career and transitioned to an HR consultant, about 10 years ago, where my clients started calling me and saying, "I don't know that we have the right person in this role."
And I say, "Well, what's the role? And how does the role fit within the broader context of your organization?" And so, the conversation often went from an individual contributor to a much larger and much more broad conversation about the structure and, "What's the mission? What are you trying to accomplish? And do we even have the role? Have we clarified what it is to be successful for that role?" My first client— since starting my company three years ago, that was one of the things that they were trying to solve for. They were going for a second series of funding and [were a] really fast growing organization. And every hiring manager in that organization said, "I need 10 people." And the CEO said, "Well, if all 10 of you need 10 people and we have to hire 100 people, who goes first? And what do we really need that's really going to impact and help us scale and grow our business?" We started by, frankly, just taking a look at their structure. And we've custom designed a facilitated workshop where we help people to really uncover how you execute your strategy through the right structure and with the right people. And so from there, we used our org design methodology and Functionly to help us get really clear on the accountabilities for each role.
And then, that gave us the clarity to know which ones we needed to hire for first so there wasn't that competition for resources. Everyone on the leadership team was aligned. That was a great way for them to make good use of their spend and make sure they did it in a very strategic and thoughtful manner.
That's a little bit of my story. I've been an HR director, a consultant, an HR VP, working in all of the other spaces of HR. But we do get this org design issue that rises a lot, especially in a post pandemic world. I feel like when we were bringing people back into the office here in the US, that was something that was, you know. And frankly, there was a lot of organizations that had to reduce headcount. Now they're coming back, right? They're seeing an increase in revenue. They're seeing an increase in demand for their products and services. But what comes first and what got us here may not get us there. So, taking a look again at that structure is something that we're often asked to do on behalf of our clients.
[00:03:31] Damian Bramanis: There was something that you mentioned there— which I think is really interesting— which was that people would ask, "Is this the right role?" And then that led to a much bigger discussion about organizational issues. Or, "We just need 10 people." And then, that led to the bigger discussion. Is that something that you find happens frequently, where the original question isn't really the question that needs to be answered?
[00:03:52] Lisa Cooper: Yes. And it took a lot of years for me to figure that out. And figuring out a little bit the hard way. But really thinking like, "What's the issue you're actually trying to solve? And could there be something else underneath all of it, that's really the root of the issue?" So, by failing forward, I've learned to ask some of the tougher, more uncomfortable questions, that might actually help us get to the root of the issue. And, frankly, sometimes, it also means saying some of the bolder things that people don't expect that one might say. As an HR professional, I've often been dubbed the, "Oh, she's so— she's HR. She's warm and fuzzy. Like, it's all about bringing your dog to work, and wearing jeans, and having tacos on Tuesday. And it's funny, cause I often say, when you look at your business strategy and your organizational strategy, it's about the business first and people come second. We have to nail the structure first and then people second. And people are like, "That doesn't sound very HR-esque of you". But I really do believe that people are the conduit by which our strategy gets executed. And so, if we don't nail the structure first, everything else gets a lot more difficult.
[00:04:56] Damian Bramanis: Yeah, absolutely. It's difficult to keep that balance and both focus on people, and focus on the business results at the same time. They're both so important.
[00:05:04] Lisa Cooper: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:05:07] Amy Springer: On the other side of the wrong person question, Lisa. I have a feeling we've got someone listening who's asking that same question, "I think I've really got the wrong person." Could you give them some suggestions of what are those potential underlying issues that they maybe haven't resolved and they could start looking at?
[00:05:27] Lisa Cooper: Yeah. So, I'll answer this in a little bit of a different way. When we do org design using Functionly, we use the term, seats, right? We're on this bus. Everybody's got a seat on the bus. This bus is on a journey. We have a destination. So we really talk first about, what are the requirements for that seat? What are the accountabilities and things like that? But, even before that, even to get on the bus, to get even a seat on the bus, there's one thing that we have to always see. And that is, an alignment to core values. If someone is rowing in the opposite direction than the rest of the organization, and really isn't on board with that destination, there probably is no seat for them. And I see that probably more commonly than others. Where you've got somebody who's maybe toxic, creating disruption, causing drama. We've all seen it, right? We've worked with that one person and we're like, "Oh boy." So, that isn't a skill gap or performance gap. That's just a bad core value fit.
And frankly, there's no room on my bus for somebody that's, again, rowing in the wrong direction and isn't aligned with where the destination is. So, I think that's the first question I would ask myself or any other leader is, "Do they fit to your values? Are they showing up in the way that you need them to?"
Because if the answer is no, all the training and the coaching and the performance — all of those things are probably not worth it. I'm a big fan of giving people several chances. I think people tend to fire themselves. I just happen to tell them when and where, after given an opportunity to improve. So long as it's not a really egregious violation, like theft or harassment or something of those sorts. I think it's very important that we first look at values and then we look at how are they performing? And, sometimes, that's difficult. It's easy as a leader to compare Lisa to Damian to Amy, but that's really not the measuring stick, right?
There might be different performance accountabilities for each of our roles that are a bit unique. The ruler, the measuring stick, if you will, is really, what is that unique role? What are those core accountabilities? What are those key performance metrics and outcomes? What are the goals and expectations for that role?
So long as a leader has done their job and clearly articulating what "done" looks like, what is "strong performance", and has provided that feedback along the way, I'm a big proponent of let's catch them doing it right. When I catch you doing it right, you're going to do more of it.
I prefer the carrot, not the stick approach, because that's just not me. I'm way too warm and fuzzy as an HR person to take that approach. But, I think it goes back to those roles and accountabilities second. But there's a lot of responsibility as a leader for that. I think leading, and coaching, and guiding a team, getting maximum performance out of an individual contributor, that's the number one job as a leader. It doesn't matter how great we are clinically, or technically, or from a compliance perspective. We could be the best engineer, accountant, HR person, software developer. But if we can't get our people to perform and help them along on their journey, remove the barriers for performance excellence, then we've got work to do in the terms of leadership.
[00:08:17] Damian Bramanis: It's interesting what you said there about having to define those values and be clear on what the expectations are and the requirements are for that seat. Because often, if it's unclear to a manager, it's definitely going to be unclear to the people working for them what they need to do to actually perform well or to end up aligning back to what's going to give business value here. It's so easy to kind of forget that.
[00:08:37] Lisa Cooper: Yeah, I'm a big proponent of job descriptions, but again, I go back to an accountability chart, if you will, that org chart on steroids that doesn't necessarily have titles or people's names. But we're just getting really clear on the structure and what a role is responsible for, and what seat owns what. That sets the foundation for the job description, so I can say, "This is what I mean when I say you're responsible for P&L." Whatever that thing is, or the marketing strategy, I can give more clarity, I can give more context. And furthermore from there, I can develop a really engaging job posting. If I'm going to hire that, say, marketing coordinator, I can start with my accountability chart that I've developed.
I now have a job description. I now can create this compelling marketing piece, that call to action that highlights for my candidates— "What is it about this role or this position or this organization that's really compelling? What's in it for me? What kind of impact can I have? What are the benefits of working here? Why would I leave my perfectly cush job that I enjoy very much to come take a chance with your company?" So, I think starting with that foundational org structure really sets the stage for a lot of things that follow it. And ensuring we get the right people in the right seat with the right values and the right skills in order to, again, execute what we're trying to do here.
[00:09:52] Damian Bramanis: Yeah, absolutely. And it's like what you're saying, is it's foundational not just to having people perform well and retain people, but also to hiring new people and being successful when bringing new people into the organization at the same time.
[00:10:03] Lisa Cooper: Yeah. And when someone's not performing, I go back to that same thing. Let's take a look at where this role is in the structure, the purpose for this role, the accountabilities for this role. So, again, if someone's not performing, I can have a pretty candid conversation with them or the manager, or their leader can have a pretty candid conversation with them about what are the changes that need to be made and work with them to develop a plan for that performance improvement.
[00:10:27] Damian Bramanis: You mentioned earlier that sometimes the questions people ask aren't actually the questions that they should be asking, and it's time to dig deeper. What are the things that might be indicating that someone should be thinking about this sort of work, so that they should be starting to think structure and accountabilities and setting that foundational work for their organization? Those sort of hints that maybe something's not quite right here, maybe this isn't quite paradise.
[00:10:49] Lisa Cooper: I'm going to approach this from an HR lens because the primary purpose of our firm is to enrich the world of work and help organizations strengthen their HR strategy, their HR structure, their HR people, their HR processes. So, a lot of the questions come to us through that HR lens. And it's interesting because HR, particularly in the U.S., is a highly regulated, complex thing. There is a lot of misnomers and a misunderstanding about HRs. A lot of leaders don't start their business because they want to be HR professionals. It's scary and it's, sort of, this thing that they're just like, " I don't know what I don't know, and I don't want to know." And so, we often get the call like, "What do I really need in HR?" A lot of our organizations that we work with have less than 250 employees. They might have one or two people in HR. It might be the bookkeeper, or the accounting person, or the office manager running HR, but they're growing.
And they need to have an understanding of what HR could be and should be. And so, we get the call of, "What do I really need in terms of HR?" And it often lends itself to, "I really need to understand your organizational mission and the rest of your organizational structure for me to tell you what you really need in HR." So again, it's taking what they thought was the issue and backing it up a few steps, in order to really understand what's happening within the business, if you will. It's funny that sometimes we get our entry point through HR, but then we're having a much broader discussion about the organizational structure overall.
[00:12:10] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. And it seems to be that as organizations grow— particularly around that size— that HR becomes more and more critical. In the early days, when it's just a few dozen people, 30 people or so, you don't often have a dedicated HR person or team. And then the pains of that start to become really apparent, like you said, at organizations, maybe between 100 or 250 employees.
[00:12:32] Lisa Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. Although, I would argue too, some of my smaller clients, they started with half a dozen people and they all wear a thousand hats. And now they're ready to hire again, 10 more people. Okay, well, who's gonna own what? What should I let go of? What's my highest and best use? Just because I can doesn't mean I should. And so again, I'm like, "Well, let's pretend none of you work here. Let's design this organizational structure as if it were on planet Mars. And we really needed to think about, what should this organization look like? Then we go through the exercise later, once we've nailed the structure of plotting the people and making sure we have right people, right seats, they align to our values, they have the skill set that we're looking for for each of those roles.
But again, it always goes back to structure first. And it's interesting because sometimes the smaller the organization, the more clarity they need. Everybody's tripping over each other, no one's really sure who owns what, somebody new comes into the organization. It's very confusing and no one really knows where they fit. It's interesting, the amount of organizations that we work with that don't even have a simple org chart. So, that's why I really like to walk them through the exercise of doing, not just an org chart, but really an accountability chart to provide that clarity and really empower the people in those seats to say, "Hey, if I'm responsible for sales and marketing, I own that. If there's a problem with generating new business and bringing in revenue, that's my accountability. And the entire team looks to me to solve that issue, right? They've empowered me. There's no "Monday morning quarterback", if you will. I'm the one who's accountable for that.
So if things go South, everybody's looking to me. I really appreciate that too, because I think in today's workplace, we all want to make an impact. We want to put our thumbprint on things and having the authority and being empowered to own my seat, if you will— we actually do a training program called How to Rock Your Seat. And really feel empowered to do all the things that are outlayed for me on my job description and in my accountability chart, feels pretty good. And I don't have my manager micromanaging me and breathing down my neck because they've said, "You own this. I'm empowering you. I'm encouraging you. I'm here to be a support, but this is your space and off you go." And I think that's a great talent retention strategy where you can have people really do it. And frankly, as a manager, how awesome for me. I don't have to make sure everybody's doing all the things. I'm going to trust, but verify.
I'm going to have KPIs ensure that things are getting done. But it gives that sense of empowerment and ownership that I think today's workers really [are] looking for.
[00:14:55] Damian Bramanis: What's really interesting there is you mentioned almost two opposite things in the same conversation. So, one was about that ownership and agency and feeling like you have accountability for something. And so that someone personally takes ownership of that. But, you also spoke about, being on planet Mars and taking everyone. "What if none of us worked here? So, almost taking away, for a period of time, that ownership of those different things. Can you talk us through that? Why do you take people to Mars and why do you think about, "What if none of us worked here?"
[00:15:24] Lisa Cooper: I learned this the hard way a couple of years ago, as well. Sometimes, when we do org design work, we say, "Oh, that's HR. That's Lisa's role. Lisa belongs in that role. But, what if Lisa's not here or what if Lisa's not the right person for that role? And sometimes we create roles for people versus create roles for the business.
And I think that's very short sighted. I think we have to put the business first. I think we have to put the mission first because I can love Damian eleven ways to Sunday, but he might not be the right guy for the role. And I'm a big believer that there is a perfect job out there for everyone. So, it's really important that we remove our bias. And that's super hard to do when you're working with a leadership team, because we all know Joe's been here for 1100 years, and he's the guy who does that thing, right? But, maybe that evolves. Maybe we're taking the business in a different direction, and maybe we don't need that level of support. Or maybe we need a higher, maybe we need a lower level of experience. It's really, really important to try to remember that it's about the structure first and the people second. And it does happen from time to time that we get through our workshop and our exercises, that we walk our clients through where we realize, "Oh, I didn't need that software engineer level one. I really need a level three. So what do we do with the individual that's currently sitting in that seat?" So, that's a different conversation, obviously. "Maybe there's another seat on our bus. Let's see if we can map them somewhere else. Maybe we can put them on a development plan and 18 months from now, they'll be ready. And we're willing to invest in that person in terms of their growth and development and coaching. Maybe we have to transition them out of the organization because due to what the business needs first— as much as we love that individual— we'll help them find gainful employment elsewhere. So, it's really a hard thing to do and I catch my clients doing it all the time. They're like, "No, no, no, that's Bob's seat. Bob doesn't have a seat. We're designing this from scratch." It's really hard not to do that, but requires some discipline. But, that's why they get me as their accountability partner.
[00:17:19] Amy Springer: Lisa, we've successfully removed people from our head to look at that structure. What do you recommend your people look at when they're informing those structured decisions? What are the inputs they need?
[00:17:32] Lisa Cooper: So one of the things that we always say before we even begin, I say, "Tell me where you were yesterday, tell me where you are today, and tell me where you're going tomorrow." And I don't want just their one year, like, "What are your one year goals?" I want to look out a bit, like, "Paint a picture of me 10 years from now. So, it's June 12th, 2034. It's nice and warm and sunny. You're sitting on a beach with a beverage in your hand and you just left a leadership team meeting. And who was in the room? And what are the things that you're working on? How many locations do you have? What's your client base look like? What awards are you winning? What are you known for? Have you developed a new product or solution, a new service line?" I get them to shut their eyes and whiteboard it out, and dream a little bit about what the future could look like. There's some organizations that have that clarity about what 5 or 10 years out look like, but a lot of folks don't. And it's important to say, "Okay, where are we headed? Because when we build org structures, it's not just to memorialize a moment in time. It's to plan for the future in my mind. That's where you can start to do some strategic workforce planning, so on and so forth. I think that really having clarity— many organizations don't have a strategic plan with clear accountabilities and mission, vision, values all the way figured out. That is a service that we offer, as an aside. We'll do a mini planning session, so that [there] can be some alignment in the leadership team about where we're going. And that's an important distinction because, like I said, what got us here might not get us to where we want to go in the future as well.
[00:19:05] Damian Bramanis: If you could click your fingers and give every leader in the world in every organization one skill, related to org design, what skill would that be? Or what lesson would they learn?
[00:19:17] Amy Springer: Another way to flip it would be, potential clients. What would you love them pre-prepared to receive and make it the best engagement ever with you?
[00:19:28] Lisa Cooper: I'll borrow a quote from one of my favorite authors and speakers, Brené Brown, which is, "Clear is kind." When you can get clear on your strategy and you can get clear on your structure, you can get clear on the roles and responsibilities and provide clarity that your people need.
Again, what does "great" look like in this organization? Wow. It's pretty amazing, the things that can happen. It's very hard to give people that clarity sometimes, because we as leaders, we're still figuring it out. We don't have all the answers. But when we can work together to provide clarity, I think amazing things can happen.
I encourage my leaders to take clarity breaks from time to time. Whether that's prayer or meditation, they go for a walk. Whatever that is for them, get some heads down space where they're disconnected from their technology. No one's knocking on their office door. They're not in a meeting. They're not behind the wheel. And really think about what's working, what's not. Where do I need to take the team from here? What do I need to do to be a better leader?" Getting that clarity of purpose and of scope and then sharing that vision in a consistent manner with the rest of the team.
That's pretty inspiring stuff, right? I've always enjoyed listening to my leader. Like, understanding what's in their head and what's keeping them up at night. Once I understand that, I can help them figure out how to solve for it. So, clarity, I think is one of those superpowers I would love to see every leader have, regarding their strategy, their structure, and how they create clear accountability for their folks.
[00:20:57] Amy Springer: Amazing.
[00:20:57] Damian Bramanis: I love that idea of clarity breaks So often that clarity doesn't come from sitting in front of a screen, it comes from other places. So, that's great.
[00:21:04] Amy Springer: I've always had a dream of having strategy rebranded in companies to be the chief clarity officer.
[00:21:10] Lisa Cooper: Oh, yeah.
[00:21:12] Amy Springer: But it sounds like, actually, every leader seat needs to have a clarity manager hat on as well, maybe.
[00:21:19] Lisa Cooper: Yeah I really think so. I mean, we get so bogged down in the day to day, right? We will go from, I think I had eight meetings today. I don't have any bandwidth in my brain to begin to think strategically about the organization. When I might be driving, that may be one thing. We have to take that pause, set everything aside. And when I do a clarity break, there's no radio on, there's no TV on. It's me in front of my fireplace, if it's the winter. Or maybe my front porch or back porch, looking out at the woods with my notebook. And there's no agenda. I don't have anything that I'm trying to solve for.
I just... stop. How do you do that? I take a deep breath. I usually do a big old sigh. And I just let my mind wander and see what comes. And it's amazing. When you just pause, it's amazing really what can happen when you give yourself that mental clarity to just get off the hamster wheel for a minute and think strategically about your business, your team, and your people.
[00:22:13] Damian Bramanis: Yeah, for sure. You could be stewing in a problem for hours and then the minute you turn your back and walk away and take a break is when the clarity comes.
[00:22:20] Lisa Cooper: Absolutely.
[00:22:23] Amy Springer: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Lisa, for joining us on the podcast today.
[00:22:27] Lisa Cooper: It's been delightful. I appreciate you inviting me on and keep up the great work. Thank you so much.
[00:22:33] Damian Bramanis: If people did want to learn more about what you've talked about today or engage further, what's the best way to find you or other resources that you've got in mind?
[00:22:41] Lisa Cooper: Yeah. You can follow Cooper People Group on LinkedIn, Facebook. And our website is cooperpg as in people group. com. Cooperpg.com.
[00:22:51] Damian Bramanis: Wonderful, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, for your humility, to chat about org design and I've loved to hear your stories and the experiences that you've had with your clients and through your career so far. And it's been really interesting to learn about your point of view.
[00:23:07] Lisa Cooper: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity.
