Summary
In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, Cynthia Escamilla, an experienced organizational design consultant, shares insights on effective org design practices. She emphasizes the importance of looking at the bigger picture when addressing organizational issues, rather than just changing roles or people. Cynthia advises leaders to focus on strategic goals and align organizational structure accordingly. She discusses common pitfalls in org design, such as mislabeling budget cuts as reorganization. Cynthia also highlights the iterative nature of org design, suggesting that leaders should plan for continuous adaptation. She explains her consulting approach, which includes diagnostics, co-creation of future designs, and implementation support. The conversation touches on the impact of AI and technology on workforce roles, emphasizing the need for organizations to consider how jobs may be augmented by new technologies in the future.
Show notes
Organization Design Forum - https://organizationdesignforum.org/
Elena Consulting - https://elena.consulting/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. We're coming live, recording from ODF, the Org Design Festival. My name's Tim Brewer, I'm one of the podcast hosts on the Org Design Podcast.
I also have Amy Springer with me today.
[00:00:13] Amy Springer: Morning, Tim.
[00:00:14] Tim Brewer: Great to have you here, Amy. You enjoying the ODF conference?
[00:00:19] Amy Springer: Yes, so amazing. Everyone is just so wonderful, open minded people.
[00:00:26] Tim Brewer: Well, look, we're lucky enough to have Cynthia, our guest today.
[00:00:29] Cynthia Escamilla: Hello.
[00:00:30] Tim Brewer: Welcome along. Before we ask about your org design history, you're quite involved in the Org Design Forum who run the conference.
For those people that are out there that are org designers, suspect they might be an org designer, or a org design geek, maybe. What do people, when they're wanting to come along and be a part of a community like this, think? – why are they coming along and getting deeper into the org design capability or developing their career around org design?
[00:00:59] Cynthia Escamilla: Yes, I'm on the board. I've been on the board for seven years, so it's been amazing, and Org Design Forum is a nonprofit organization based out of the United States that, if you're an org design practitioner or HR business partner or just looking to learn more about org design, there is a website called organizationdesignforum.org that you can go to and look at all of the resources that are there. We hold an annual conference that we're at this year, we're at in Minneapolis this year, and it's where a lot of practitioners come together and get the latest information, feedback, insight on the field or different topics around org design.
This year's conference is heavily focused on generative AI on work and the field of org design. So, that's what we've been focusing on. It's amazing group of practitioners, very welcoming, open. We try to share all the materials that is presented at the conference and what people will find, there's no charge to join. Our community is free and we have monthly community conversations, podcasts, things like that, that you can find or just join a session every month to talk about just a different org design topic.
[00:02:31] Amy Springer: So, everyone I've spoken to, Cynthia, has said no one chose to be in org design. They've just fallen into org design. They've accidentally ended up here. Is that the same story for you?
[00:02:44] Cynthia Escamilla: Yes, actually, I just completely fell into org design. I grew up in human resources. So, started my career at Intel, worked there for 10 years in just different HR specialties, and then moved to Nike where I was there for almost 15 years, and when I was at Nike, I started working as an HR business partner. Did that for the majority of my career there. Somewhere along the way the capability of org design came in saying, "Hey, if you're an HR business partner, you're expected to do org design." Which I had no idea what that was. I just, "Oh, okay. Well, where do I learn this?" So, I just went on the internet and I looked to see classes in org design and I actually found The USC Center of Effective Organization that teaches organization design. And they specialize in the Galbraith star model, which I think you've probably heard a lot of in the session this week, and that's where I learned. So, I took the class and started practicing different elements of org design. And we can talk about what those are but, really, that's how I learned it, was I went and took classes in it, and USC CEO also offers advanced course in org design, which I also took. And then I also try to practice, I went back as an HR business partner. After I took the class, I tried to practice it within the groups that I supported, and that's how I started to apply organization design elements to the businesses.
[00:04:28] Tim Brewer: Actually at conference, I met a few different HR partners, business partners, probably similar to your background. Of all the different things that you were doing at that time, what was it about org design that caught your attention or that you really liked or that gave you energy to end up now, now being such a specialist in org design?
[00:04:48] Cynthia Escamilla: Yeah, it's a great question. And, one of the things that really attracted me to the field was just the strategic and systems- thinking approach that organization design does around trying to solve organizational issues. So, as a generalist, it could be a compensation issue, a leadership issue, whatever issue you're trying to solve for.
Organization design starts with the business strategy. It really starts with what is going on in the business. Which, as an HR business partner, I always try to understand the businesses that I supported. Not coming from a perspective of, "I'm an HR and I want to try to apply a different model to you." It's, "what is happening in the business that I can help you try to fix or resolve and move forward in what you're trying to achieve."
And organizational design does that by starting with strategy. What's the business strategy? What are the capabilities that you're trying to build with that strategy? And then, what elements? Is it structural? Is it process? Is it rewards? Are there people skills that need to be improved or assessed? What is it that will help the business move forward in how they want to achieve their goals? And so, providing that holistic perspective was really helpful as a business partner. And I found a lot of satisfaction in doing that work.
[00:06:28] Tim Brewer: One of the things that I'm sure we've all seen in organizations— what goes wrong when people aren't thinking about their organization design or it's been done very reactively? Can you share, carefully, about some of the situations where you've walked into and someone's thought, "Oh, this isn't an org design problem." You're like, "This is definitely an org design problem." What are the things that go wrong? And for the audience, which [are] typically leaders leading a business that's grown very fast under them, or that they've gone into a new leadership role and don't have org design experience.
How do they know they've got an org design problem on their hands when they're looking at their business?
[00:07:04] Cynthia Escamilla: What I usually do when I go and talk to leaders and look at the situation— what leaders often do is, they stop seeing what the issue is in front of them versus maybe going a little deeper and asking more questions.
So for example, if a leader often comes into a new organization and says, "I need to change X, Y, and Z role or person in the role", because they feel that role or that person is not what they need. And oftentimes, it goes deeper than that. Just changing that person or that role is not going to solve your issue.
It might have to be, are they really focused on the right things? Is the person overwhelmed because the organization is not situated in the right way. So, oftentimes, as a leader, just really stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. And understanding, what's the strategy? What's the vision for the organization? And how can they achieve that in the most effective way.
I think the other issue that's pretty common is trying to say it's an organizational issue— or like trying to solve budget issues or cost constraints. And saying this is org design when it's actually not, you know? When you have to hit a number, you have to hit your budget number. Don't call it organization design. It's a budget cut. So, those are things that I would say to leaders, " Hey, if you want to do this well and if you want to do this right, let's step back and take a look at the strategic focus and where is it that you need to grow? And how can you, maybe, reinvest in areas and divest from other areas in order to achieve what you want."
[00:08:54] Amy Springer: Are you able to share an example of this that you've seen in your real life practice?
[00:09:00] Cynthia Escamilla: Yeah, so, there's a lot of stories. Let me give you, kind of, a story where something didn't work out. There was one time where we knew that there was a budget constraint and the leader had to cut a certain department when this was a merchandising department. And merchandising actually was a very important capability for that group and they outsourced it. We cut the headcount and we saved quote unquote "the money" on the internal resources.
Two years later, they rehired all of the merchandisers back into that department because it was such a critical part of what they needed. So, that was done in the spirit of, "Hey, we needed to save money", but we actually didn't in the end. So.
[00:09:51] Tim Brewer: I think that's really interesting, and Chris said that yesterday, the keynote speaker from yesterday, Chris Worley. You studied at the same college, correct?
[00:10:01] Cynthia Escamilla: Right, so he was actually one of the teachers at the USC CEO.
[00:10:05] Tim Brewer: We asked a few of the similar questions and actually is similar to what you said. I think that's really important for a leader to not just assume like, "Oh, I'll just get a new person in that role". But actually to go back to the strategy and ask the question, what's really important for organization to do well?
[00:10:20] Cynthia Escamilla: Yes.
[00:10:20] Tim Brewer: Let's say I was leading an organization and thinking like, how do I have a healthy org design culture? How do I make sure my organization's ready to deal with the future, which just seems to be increasing— like changes, once every three years or once every five year thing. This is like, iterative. And we've heard a lot of people at the conference talk about, people are not prepared for that. They think, "Oh, I went through a transformational change. It's over now."
[00:10:47] Cynthia Escamilla: Right.
[00:10:48] Tim Brewer: But it's not. By the time they start one change, the next change kicks off and it just seems to be relentless. What advice would you give a leader about how to prepare their organization to do that well?
[00:10:59] Cynthia Escamilla: I often say with leaders, it's progress, not perfection.
And there's never a destination. So that's something to think through that, business is iterative. The economy evolves, the business evolves, people evolve, the times change and so, you're always going to be iterating. The thing is to make sure that you're doing it in a very thoughtful way, that there's purpose behind it.
And so, when I go in and work with leaders, I always try to design two to three years out. So, here's your strategy— because your strategy should be forward-thinking as well. And so, if you were to take everything off the board right now and think two to three years out, what would your organization look like?
And then work backwards from there and saying, okay, so what steps do I need to work today, in order to get to that future vision? And knowing that next year, that situation will change. But hopefully you're headed in just making that progress in the organization, that you're setting them up for success.
[00:12:04] Tim Brewer: Focusing on the work you now do at Elena Consulting, tell us a little bit about— for people that are like, "We just don't have the capability internally. There's too much of a jump to go from our current org design culture, our current structure to where we think we might need to be." How do they know they're a good fit for Elena Consulting? The work that you do now, where are you spending your time? What are you enjoying doing most?
[00:12:28] Cynthia Escamilla: I really enjoy just working in the specific field of org design. And I'll tell you what that looks like. So, that encompasses working, coming in to different companies, and potentially what I do, a diagnostic. So, I'll do an assessment. So, what I'll do is work with the leadership team. And I have a set of questions around, how is the organization working? What's not working? What's the strategy? Do people understand the strategy? How are decisions made in the organization? Where are the pain points in the organization? Do you have the right skills to achieve what your future goals are? What are the gaps? So, I do an analysis and that's called a diagnostic, and after that diagnostic is completed, then we'll go in and decide.
Some people end right there. It's like, I just want to know what's wrong? What issues I'm facing in my organization?
But then we'll go into more of the design. What I like to do is co-create. I don't believe in coming in with a set model of, "Here's what your organization can look like."
I actually include the leadership team and hopefully more of the next-level leaders in designing their future. So, we would go off and do some workshops around what that future design could look like. And it's not just structure. So, that's one piece of it. But also looking at the key processes that are important that would support that structure.
What are the reward systems that would — what are the behaviors that you want to see that need to change in the organization? And then, what are the important competencies and skills that people need in that future organization? So, we do a lot of that work, so that you can set that vision. And then the last piece and the most important is, how do you start to activate or implement that vision? And so, I will help companies or help leaders or teams try to implement what they've envisioned.
[00:14:43] Amy Springer: Thank you, that is such tangible tips for people to follow. In that summary, Cynthia, you mentioned the word, "future", a lot and that your primary goal with your leaders is to think two, three years in the future.
The last couple of days in the conference, we've been talking about all the different things that are happening in our world right now and the things that are coming. What piques your interest the most? In relation to the changes we're experiencing in the world and in relation to org design.
[00:15:12] Cynthia Escamilla: Yeah, I think the impact of generative AI and technology on the workforce is inevitable. And what intrigued me the most is the question around how will our roles, how will our jobs be augmented by this new technology? So, that is super intriguing of really thinking about — and it could be as simple as automation, right? It's not. And so, that's what is intriguing me the most as far as, how do I start to include that? How do teams start to think about that, as they think about the future, as far as we need this same number of people. Will the work look the same? How might it be augmented by whatever system they're using or whatever technology they will be supported by?
[00:16:05] Tim Brewer: Awesome. Cynthia, thank you so much for joining us on the Org Design Podcast. Amy, as always, it's great having you here. And for everyone listening along, another podcast coming live. We are coming live from the Org Design Festival which is put on by the Org Design Forum. So, for those of you who are practitioners or do something thinking, "Oh, maybe, actually, I'm doing all of this org design work". A great organization to find and be a part of and a true, volunteer-led community.
So, thank you so much for coming along.
[00:16:38] Cynthia Escamilla: Thank you, appreciate it.
[00:16:38] Tim Brewer: It's a total pleasure and have a great day.
[00:16:41] Cynthia Escamilla: Thank you.
