Summary
In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, we sit down with Carlos Valdes-Dapena, a seasoned expert in organizational design and development. Carlos shares his insights on the evolving nature of organizational structures, the importance of adaptability in leadership, and the human aspects of organizational change.
Carlos discusses the shift from traditional hierarchical structures to more responsive and adaptive organizational models. He emphasizes the need for leaders to let go of outdated control paradigms and embrace a more flexible approach to management. The conversation touches on the challenges of change, both for organizations and individuals, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation in today's rapidly evolving business landscape.
Key points from the episode:
- The transition from control-based to responsive organizational structures
- The importance of adaptability and "letting go" for leaders in modern organizations
- The human challenges in organizational change and the need for continuous learning
- Insights into the Organization Design Forum (ODF) and its role in the field of organizational design
- The broad scope of organizational design, encompassing various aspects of how human systems operate in workplaces
This episode offers valuable insights for leaders, managers, and anyone interested in improving organizational effectiveness and navigating the complexities of modern business environments.
Listen
Show notes
https://corporatecollaboration.com/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. We're coming live from the Org Design Festival here in Twin Cities. Amy, podcast host, thank you for joining us again. We've been having a great day today. And today we have the privilege of Carlos Valdes-Depena. I've been working on this to make sure I get it. Did I get that close?
[00:00:18] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Yes. Close enough.
[00:00:19] Tim Brewer: I probably butchered it a little bit with my Australian accent, but we're stoked to have you join the podcast.
[00:00:25] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Thank you.
[00:00:25] Tim Brewer: Let's get right into it. We're obviously here at the Org Design Festival. I know you're quite deeply involved here as well, but how did you end up getting involved in org design? Did you go and study? As a kid, you were thinking I could be a— I could be an astronaut, a doctor. Mom wanted me to be a doctor, but I did org design. Tell us the story.
[00:00:43] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Life took over. My first degrees, undergraduate and first master's degree are in theater. I was an actor.
[00:00:49] Tim Brewer: Oh, wow!
[00:00:50] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Always wanted to teach. That was my goal was to be a teacher. Life happened. Things got in the way. I ended up in the stock photography business back in the days before there was internet and you could download a photo or take a picture with your phone. None of that existed. I was in that business for 10 years, managing people, running a customer service and sales department. And interestingly, when things would go wrong, they would come to me and say, "No, this isn't working right. Can you help us fix it?" And so I said, "Sure, let me look at it." And I started to propose solutions for new ways to handle outgoing selections of photographs that were being sent to clients who wanted to have things to choose from. Or, when we were getting things back was a particular problem. We get hundreds and hundreds of transparencies— this is what we were dealing in back in those days. And how do you do that in an efficient way that isn't mind-numbing for the poor souls that have to do [it], is all manual. And that was my introduction to thinking differently about how businesses operate. Now, mind you, my degree was in the arts. And I got into this because I loved theater, I love photography and realized I wasn't going to have a life in the theater, so I did my other artistic endeavor. But, I ended up with this kind of process and operational focus. And it started there. Then, I got hired out of there. That business started to go south, as the internet started to emerge and the business model wasn't working anymore.
Basically I bailed, but I got a job as a trainer, a corporate trainer. I got hired because of my theater background, I was really good standing in front of people and delivering content. And I got hired by a company called DDI out of Bridgeville, Pennsylvania. They originally wondered if I would be a contractor for them, but then they hired me full time. And so suddenly I was a trainer / consultant. I had no idea this even existed as a thing. None.
I stayed with them for three years. I became a performance management consultant and a culture change consultant. Then, I got hired by IBM to be an executive coach for their top 35 leaders out of Armonk, New York. While I was at IBM, I went and got a degree in organization development, and suddenly, I was a card carrying member of this community of people who work on organizations. I left IBM, got hired by Mars Incorporated. Was there for 18 years. I did one of their greatest needs, their perceived greatest needs was for org redesign, which they would do every year to 18 months. We reorganized something, somewhere. Very big company then and much bigger now. So, I was kept very busy in my early days as an internal consultant at Mars.
I was part of a competencies program rollout and some other org development kinds of projects. But, org design kept coming up and I realized that's how I landed in it. I studied it in grad school, once I realized it was a thing you could do. By now, I'm in my mid forties when I'm finding this out. Where I think I had the greatest impact was on the back end of the process. Like a lot of major firms, Mars would bring in Bain or McKinsey who would come in, throw a lot of consultants at a problem and then come back and say, "Here's what's wrong and here's the solution." And it was a binder, usually about three inches thick that they would hand out to all the leaders and say, now go implement that.
And usually we'd botch it. It just didn't go well. I found a lot of my career has been helping the organization implement its intentions in ways that work versus implement what somebody from the outside told them they needed to do differently, because best practice suggests you do that. So the kind of interesting role of reinterpreting the suggestions from highly paid consultants into things that would work within that culture and that system at Mars Incorporated. Mars is a privately held company, very strong and entrenched culture. Most culture is. And I became a really good translator.
[00:04:29] Tim Brewer: It's so interesting. If I could paraphrase, that I had career plans and life happened and now I'm an org designer.
[00:04:36] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Pretty much.
[00:04:38] Tim Brewer: Now that was such an interesting career. Can I delve a little bit into what you're doing now, both in terms of work if you're still working?
[00:04:48] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: I am, I'm still working. I know I look ancient.
[00:04:51] Tim Brewer: No, I didn't know. I thought maybe you're just kind of like out on a ranch somewhere or have, like, a boat on the Mediterranean.
[00:04:58] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: When I'm not on my yacht. I do mean to retire at some point. So, I left the internal consulting world, which I really loved. I loved being a part of a company and watching my efforts pay off. Very satisfying way to work. I left that business in 2018 because I had a book coming out and I wanted to try my hand at being author, consultant, speaker guy. That's gone okay.
I miss the camaraderie of being an internal consultant. And, again, experiencing the impact of my efforts, firsthand. I stay very closely in touch with the folks at Mars. I still consult back to them quite a bit. Most of my work these days is in the space of working with senior teams, helping them make sense of what they've been given in the org.
So, like I said— and Mars continues to do this— they like to reorganize. Try a new shape, try a new structure, put these people there, move those, that function there. And what they've never been very good at is the thing I think I'm best at, which is, generically, change management. How do we turn that into this and make it work and bring people along on the journey so they feel capable, competent, and able to deliver on the intentions. So, I'm working with senior teams who were saying, "They put us together like this. We don't really know how to enact it. Help us understand how we can make sense of this." And that's where I'm spending most of my time.
Some really interesting work, trying to help, for example, the research and development function at the very top levels of the snack food business and Rosa snacking business. Lot of smart people who want to do the right thing. Lot of overlapping roles and responsibilities and trying to sort it all out and get people working on the right things in the right places in the right ways. That's where I'm spending most of my time.
One thing about me and a lot of my colleagues— you were talking to Paul , earlier— Paul is brilliant. First of all, a hero of mine, and brilliant working at the very top of the organization. I tend to work closer to where the rubber meets the road. I'm just better at that. I'm better at the nuts and bolts bit. And that's where I tend to spend my time and energy.
[00:07:01] Amy Springer: I have a slightly clarifying question, Carlos. You mentioned the clear accountabilities, authority, decision making. Is that the bit of design work they're trying to implement?
Or is that the precursor to even being able to bring together the change?
[00:07:20] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Interesting question and I hadn't thought about it in quite that way. Let me answer it and see if it's 's answering your question. I think what I'm doing— and have traditionally, have just fallen into, as often happens in my life— is mopping up somebody else's mess.
So, the level of thought that went into this structure— that's two things. I think it's, these structures were not well considered. Some group of people got behind a closed door and said, "Oh, we think this will be a nice thing to try. Let's put these people together and see if it makes that thing work better there."
Without ever going involving the people, so they missed that really crucial step in what I've always considered to be great org design is that, it's a participative process, right? You're bringing in stakeholders to talk about how they do what they do, how it would be better if they could do it differently and, how do we get there, right?
Very little of that is happening. And if it is, it's missing the mark for some reason. And so I go in and I just try to help people make sense of it. And first of all, I have to say there's no ill will in any of this, right? People are doing what they think is best. There's a lot of impatience. People want change and they want it now.
They underestimate the degree of difficulty for people to unlearn old behaviors and then learn new behaviors to replace those. And the older people get, the harder that gets. I feel like it's, the product of not robust design process and flawed implementation of that intent.
Does that make sense? And does it answer your question, is what I'm wondering about.
[00:08:52] Amy Springer: It does, I think it highlights how challenging this process is. And how much there's people involved and—
[00:08:59] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Well, that's the messy part of this. If there weren't people, right? So, we were talking earlier in one of the sessions here, this model of the organization as machine, is in a lot of people's minds.
They think, "This is just a machine. I'm gonna move the parts around. This gear fits here." It's complicated. What they don't appreciate is how complex it really is. It's a human system. It's messy, right? And it's human. If you treat it as something other than that, you're going to get results that are suboptimal.
Which is what happens.
[00:09:28] Tim Brewer: Getting involved where the work is done, that means you get out to talk to frontline people and just kind of sit and watch. When you're working with your customers, where do you like to spend your time? Actually, maybe for the audience, thinking about when you're going and spending time, you've got to walk the floor of a lot of different organizations.
When org design is not done well, how do you know that it's an org design problem, not an L&D problem, or not a HR problem, or not a training problem. And you're like, "Hey, we got an issue related to org design."
[00:09:55] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: It's very difficult to make that assessment. If what you are is a manager of people and you're experiencing issues within your function or team, you kind of have to haul out the old Galbraith Star Model. And you have to look at all the nodes on that thing and say, "Okay, let me just make an assessment or involve others in making this assessment of where are we stumbling?" Cause you'll see symptoms in a lot of places. My guess is that almost all— let me just think about my life for a second, right?
Most of the situations I encounter, there is a measure of flawed, either flawed design or flawed design implementation, but there are also usually capabilities issues. So we did this design and we didn't think about the capabilities we needed to really make. So you've got some L&D opportunities there, right?
You've got leadership opportunities, right? Not all leaders are equally capable. So, every one of those nodes— the strategy is, how clear is that? This is why it's a complex problem and not a complicated problem, right? It's not that we need to just put a new gear in and it'll fix it.
We're probably gonna have to look in all of these places.
We did a little exercise in the session this morning, but what's a quick fix? And to be sure, if you realize one of the big issues here is clarity of strategic intent. Great. Let's go back and do a session on strategy. That usually helps set the table to get some other things right.
So yeah, find the, if you will, the low hanging fruit, and address it, but you can't pretend that you won't have deficits elsewhere in the system that you're going to have to look at.
[00:11:26] Amy Springer: I'm sitting here with a change manager, someone that's good at what he does. One thing we've been talking a lot about is how generative AI and other things coming into this world mean we're going to be having to respond to that strategic direction more often.
You've already said, actually, these change projects take a long time. Do you have any sense or insight yet of how we're going to be able to bring these processes together? Are we going to have to totally rethink how we do the change more often?
[00:11:58] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: I think we have to dispense with the idea that change is an event. Or that it is associated with a particular initiative. What we have to— what I am trying to do, and I'm having a very difficult time, is make my clients change capable. Agile is another way to describe it. Lowercase a in this case, right? But how can I get these groups of people, these leaders to understand that the change isn't going to stop. It's just not.
And you're constantly going to be having to tweak pieces of the system, in order to adapt to what's happening. When I first got into this work, 20, 25 years ago— longer— the notion that strategy was this three to five year thing, right? You're lucky, if your strategic choices will endure for a year at this point, because of the rate at which technology, in particular, but things like pandemics can absolutely throw a wrench into the works. Yeah? So, it's about becoming adaptive. And owning your own change management, so you don't have to always pay a guy like me to come in and do it with you. Nothing will be stable. Make that assumption. You're lucky when stuff does stay stable, but then the stuff around it changes, so you have to make those systemic adjustments.
[00:13:15] Tim Brewer: For a leader sitting in the audience, listening to this podcast, or maybe reading a bit of content and they're looking at their organization feeling that, "Hey, we've not even finished the transformational change that we just paid the most expensive binder of information or the most expensive PowerPoint." Customers are like, "That was the most expensive PowerPoint deck we've ever paid for." And they're just in the process of implementing it. And something shifted externally that they weren't in control of.
They're having to change again. What are the couple of basic things that you would give advice to any leader leading their organization that they need to think about, say, to have the organization think more agilely. Is there things that I can do that is small and iterative to have a healthier org design culture?
[00:13:59] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: I have a bias, so I'm sure other people answer this question differently. I think the unit of agility, the unit of adaptability is the team. And you have to start thinking about— and this is not my, this is not news, right? There's some org design concepts out there around this. Teams represent a capability, typically, right? A subset of capability, often. And they're agile enough to move and go where they need to go. So what we have to do is, as a leader— and it will depend on your organization and it's culture and how hierarchical it is, right? But you need to be able to be constantly, assessing the trends that are affecting you. And be willing to speak truth to power a little bit and say, "Look, you've got us working on this. The org design is set up to optimize this kind of outcome. I'm telling you, that's not any longer the outcome that is going to serve our business purposes. The enterprise needs something else and you need to let us go there.
And that upward feedback— and ideally it's coming from whoever your client's last customer is— through these teams up. You have to start being an agent for upward influencing to get the people who hold the resources and the authority to go, "Okay. We're giving you that freedom and do it."
In my view, one of the hardest jobs on the planet is to be a people manager at that level. Because you are literally in the middle. You are taking the top down pressure, processing that, sharing with the team, getting all the upward and inward pressure from your stakeholders and your team members and trying to feed that up. As much as anything else, in order to be that voice of truth into the organization to get the resources you need, to do what actually needs to be done, you have to do a lot of self reflection. You got to work on yourself. Because it's not easy. It takes an inner resource and an inner resilience. And I have profound empathy for my senior leader clients, today, who are feeling all of those pressures and don't know where to turn. The best I can say in these conversations with them is "Let's you and I talk and figure out what do you need in order to fulfill that really demanding role?
[00:16:03] Tim Brewer: We actually talk internally about the difference between a strategic leader and an operational leader. I'd say— so that operational leader, just to recount, if people are listening in and they are that person where they're sitting, they're managing, maybe managers or teams, but they're not the person deploying or shifting resource around.
So, they're kind of in this awkward position where they see what's about to hit, particularly when things are moving so quickly. The best managers that you see being able to feed that back up into the organization, speak truth to the organization. What is it you think about them that they do well to get their voice heard and get resource deployed their direction.
What are the tactics? If I'm middle manager thinking, "Man, I was not getting the traction I need here with a leadership team who's doing this well." What do you see?
[00:16:47] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: So, I've worked recently with a senior IT person who came into a role he didn't expect. He got hired by the business into one role. Then, his boss quit. And then his new boss quit and he ended up in the big chair. And very smart guy. And he did the thing you do as a good leader. You listen. You spend your first 30, 60, 90 days asking questions, listening, trying to understand what the hell is going on. And he realized very quickly that, I put this in air quotes, "Transformation project that was underway was simply not going to work." And no one had had the courage, up to that point, to speak that truth. And they had people deployed against this project, and they had hundreds of thousands of dollars deployed against it.
It was a big IT infrastructure thing. I think he found himself going to the CFO of the organization and giving up any attachment to keeping his job. Which is rare, right? But in the way he tells the story, he had to go to this senior person and say, "You can fire me if you want, but if you keep doing this, you're going to waste an incredible amount of time and money.
And if you want to get it right, we should stop this now." And it took a couple of goes. But, I'll go back to something I said a minute ago. He realized, if we have to do this, I don't want this job anyway. So I'm just going to speak truth to the power here and try to do the right thing. And then, at least I'll feel like I've done the right thing.
I can live with myself and I can feel good going to my team saying, "We are now going to deploy our resources where they need to go." That's a really rare— I don't know that it's a trait, but his attitude towards that is unusual. And I don't want to suggest to my colleagues and clients out there that they'd be self sacrificing right? Don't throw yourself down in front of the train. You got to be smart about it. But also there's gonna come a time when you just have to ask yourself, "Is it worth not telling the truth? What happens if I don't and what do I have to live with?" And I don't envy the people in that position.
[00:18:49] Amy Springer: Two different traits there, but slightly overlapping. One actually being the ability to understand sunk cost.
[00:18:57] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Yeah.
[00:18:58] Amy Springer: Calling out sunk cost and being okay with letting that go. Then also having that hard conversation.
[00:19:03] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Yeah, not just once, but two or three times.
[00:19:06] Tim Brewer: So he wasn't successful on the first go.
[00:19:07] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: No and he was persistent. So that trait is in there as well.
This guy is just a regular person. When we would talk offline, he could, bitch and moan with the best of them, right? And he wasn't, at no point, interestingly— he had a humility about him. He was not tooting his own horn around this. And I thought, wow, that's really— that's really special.
This guy has a lot of authority and controls a lot of budget, right? He could have a little feifdom. But, he was just trying to do the right thing. By his lights, what he saw is the right thing. I think at the end of the day, that's all you can do.
What's the right thing to do here? And people will come down on different sides of that.
[00:19:41] Tim Brewer: We've talked about some of the things that have gone wrong, a couple of tips for people that have to communicate in those hard situations and speak hard truth.
Coming back to like having a resiliency or a culture that can deal with continuous change. What advice would you have for leaders in organizations that are listening to this and thinking the same thing? They're like, "Actually, that resonates with me." How do they prepare for this level of change that their teams talked about, being able to absorb things as they go and make changes regularly.
Is there anything that you're kind of just telling— when you're sitting with a leader and they're first kind of like, "Hey, you don't need me for this." What is the advice you're giving most when you're sitting with a new leader and chatting them through the problems they're articulating to you in the organization?
Is it different every time or are there kind of themes you're seeing emerge in the way organizations are just constantly having to handle change?
[00:20:32] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Much of org design is about systems of control, right? The boxes, the lines, the who's going to control what, who's going to get to say yes to what and no to what. My view? That doesn't work anymore. My coaching to leaders is, one, you have to learn the subtle art of letting go. Because you're not in control. You're not. You couldn't control the pandemic. You can't control AI. You can work with these things. You can learn how to partner with the forces around you or engage with them and be in a state of inquiry around, how do I engage productively with it, no matter what it is. But this notion of control that's kind of embedded in classic org design and even the normal hierarchical structure. It comes from the days of the Roman legions.
It's about control and then using my control to allocate resources. You're not in control. What you have to be is responsive, not controlling. And traditional management is authority, right? Like higher up I go, the more authority and resource I get to control. Now, what you have to do is figure out, what's the direction? And what's the way we can be most responsive to the way those directions are shifting?
So, the art of letting go. This is how it was yesterday. It's not how it is today. I can't spend any time bemoaning the fact that it's not like it was yesterday. Zero time. Not that way anymore. Next. And that notion of next. Okay, what's next? What's gonna happen now? We got it right for today. We got it right for this week. What's next? The worry I have when I talk about these things with people is, we, as creatures want stability. We like what's there today, what's there tomorrow, you know.
The town I raised my kids in— the hardware store, the family owned hardware store that was there when they were kids and I used to go to as I was fixing up the bathroom or repairing a pipe in the basement— they're shutting down. I hate that. I hate that change. And, what's next? We got to move on.
It's a really hard thing to do. We attach, the Buddha had that figured out, right? The cause of suffering is our attachment and we have to learn how to unattach. And be okay with the temporal nature of stuff. Needing to let go is going to have to— it will increase. And so, we have to prepare ourselves, so that we can then learn the new stuff, we need to learn to adapt. It's a human thing.
[00:22:49] Tim Brewer: Yeah, very human thing. Carlos, it's been really, really good having you on the show.
[00:22:54] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: I feel like it's really been out there.
[00:22:56] Amy Springer: It's been amazing, thank you, Carlos.
[00:22:58] Tim Brewer: Organizations are full of humans and I know you've seen and others have talked about in the podcast, how bad and how damaging it can be for humans when organizations aren't designed intentionally or designed well. And so to bring it back to the, kind of, human challenges of a leader, needing to let go and tackle the "what next" of every new day, particularly in the last couple of years. And I'm sure it appears to all of us that that pace is increasing the future. I think it's a really great way to tail out the podcast. It's a pleasure having you along. I know you're pretty involved in ODF.
[00:23:31] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: I am.
[00:23:31] Tim Brewer: And the conference. How is the conference going? We have a lot of leaders listening, but we also have a bunch of experts that may not even realize they're an org designer, A, and, B, are an org designer, but may not have heard of ODF. Tell us a little bit about ODF and how people would find you guys and get in touch.
[00:23:49] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Organization Design Forum. That's the full name of ODF. We have a website. We have lots of tools at the website. We've got a reference library.
Every month we conduct conversations, virtual conversations. One's called Coffee and Cocktails, which is an open forum. We have a big idea. We invite people to jump on Zoom and come think about topic A, B, or C. More structured conversations, but we're bringing in an expert for what we call a community conversation.
You can just pop in and listen. You can participate, do what you want, light touch, or you can do what I did. I've been a member since 2017. And by the way, there's no membership fee for this. It's a community. I attended my first conference, fell in love with this crowd, and volunteered to join a committee, which I did, the community engagement and learning team. Lots of ways to engage.
The conference is going spectacularly well. This is our largest attendance ever. You've probably heard that from other people. The presenters have been awesome. The quality of the interactions— just networking around here. The buzz is just tremendous. So, it's going well.
I'm co-chairing the conference committee next year with Cynthia Escamilla. Looking forward to that. It's a challenge. I wouldn't have expected seven, eight years ago when I joined, that I'd ever be doing this. I am not a joiner. That's one of the things about me. And here I am, in the thick of it. But I do it because I can have conversations like this and walk away, having learned something new that I can share with my clients or that I take back to my personal life. So, it's going great. Having a great time.
[00:25:16] Tim Brewer: Yeah. One of the things— I'm a member of the community, as well. I loved it. Came last year for my very first time and dragged everyone back.
It's good to then add the opportunity to have the podcast from here with such a rich room of experts. One of the things really surprising for me is it's not just org design consultants like yourself. There are the bigger org design firms present and represented here.
[00:25:37] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Yes there are.
[00:25:37] Tim Brewer: There's also internal org design teams. You talked about Mars. I know there's other people here from the internal org design team there and State Farm. And a range of other different organizations that send their internal teams. So, it's really diverse and volunteer led. I'm going to say this right way, it is commercial and it's a great, well run event. But everyone's— they're not all coming with an agenda.
So, there's a real genuine community here.
[00:26:01] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: The best thing about this— and I've been to other professional conferences where there are tables with people hawking their wares to me, wanting me to sign up for this program or buy that product. We've got some sponsors here who have been generous in helping create the incredible conference we have, but there's none of that.
I don't feel I'm being sold to or, coerced into anything. It's just— this is going to sound strange. It's just good fun in a field that all of us, to some degree or another, have passion for. It's just so life affirming to have your job feel like it's enjoyable and it's meaningful at the same time. It's really quite unique.
[00:26:42] Tim Brewer: Well, on that, we want to thank you for coming and joining the podcast. We're actually going to give you one of our Org Design Oracle card packs, if you've not already got one of those. I know we've got spread out all over the table, our facilitator cards.
Damian, podcast co-host, been busy working on those, as well. If you're sitting out in the audience and you are an org designer, you suspect you may have the org design passion like what you've heard from Carlos today, we encourage you to check out ODF. Particularly if you're in the US, because they're US based, but they do have other networks around the world.
And we had a bunch of people visit from overseas as well. This is for me, probably the best true community of org designers that I've been able to find. So I encourage you to check that out.
[00:27:21] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: Can I say one last thing?
[00:27:23] Tim Brewer: Absolutely.
[00:27:23] Amy Springer: Please do.
[00:27:24] Carlos Valdes-Dapena: If you're managing people, if you're managing a team, if you're managing a function, if you're working in an organization and you're thoughtful about what's working and what's not, whether it's a process, a piece of software, the office layout, right?
All of that, that's all org design. It's not just names in boxes on a chart. It's, how does this human system operate? What are the bits of it and how might we make it better? We're all org designers touching all those things, all the time. So, this is not just about people who call themselves designers. This is just people who care about organizations as human systems and trying to make them the best they can be.
So, I want to just open the aperture a little bit to what it means to come to ODF. It just means you care about making better organizations.
[00:28:11] Amy Springer: Well done. Thank you Carlos.
[00:28:13] Tim Brewer: Thanks for joining us on the Org Design Podcast. Carlos, thanks so much for coming along. Amy, thanks so much for coming and co hosting and leading again.
We'll see you all soon.
