In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, host Tim Brewer interviews Alix Prassis, an organizational design expert and founder of Culture Elevation Consulting. Alix shares her unique journey into org design, from growing up in a family business to her diverse experiences in HR, learning and engagement, and DEI roles. She discusses the importance of proactive organizational design, addressing growing pains in scaling companies, and the common symptoms of structural issues in organizations. Alix emphasizes the need for leaders to look beyond quick fixes and consider broader systemic solutions, highlighting the value of strategic workforce planning and designing with culture in mind. The conversation also touches on Alix's role as an adjunct professor and her approach to helping leaders navigate organizational challenges.
Show Notes
Culture Elevation Consulting - https://www.cultureelevationconsulting.com/
The Chicago School - https://www.thechicagoschool.edu/
he Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization by Peter Senge - Wiki
Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Hey, welcome to the Org Design Podcast. I'm joined by Amy Springer. Privileged to have Alix Prassis on the show today. Alix, thank you for joining us from Chicago.
We start with a question for just about everyone. Alix, how did you end up in org design? It's just like, "Hey mom, dad, I want to be a policeman, astronaut, or an org designer". What was the journey for you to now spending a bunch of your time helping people think about the structure of their organization?
[00:00:30] Alix Prassis: Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you, call back to— when you're growing up, what do you want to be? I never knew what I wanted to be, but I always knew what I liked to study. So, I always just gravitated to what I like to learn. I will say, I think an important part of this is the fact that my parents started a small business right before I was born. So, I grew up in the family business and got to see the intricate workings of business on all sides from a very young age. Defintely was working the front desk at, 12, 13 years old. So, got a lot of exposure. But, I actually— I didn't know where I wanted to go. I knew I didn't want to take over the family business. I actually, fell into retail while I was in my undergraduate days. And ended up being in their talent division there. So, really kicked off my career in HR. Was then recruited to another retail group to actually open up their store in Times Square in New York City.
So, in a lot of ways was like a startup, right? So we had to hire X amount of people in a certain amount of time. We had to operate out of a hotel with a modem connection. So, got a lot of exposure to, kind of, all the things that happen when you're setting up a new business, so to speak. From there, I actually went to a school, so I was still in HR. But, always was getting kind of exposure to that organizational development side of things. And, I didn't know that org design was a thing yet. But started to see the strategy and started to see how all of that comes together. After the school, I actually went to a cybersecurity professional services company. And so, I spent actually the last over a decade in technology-related professional services companies that often operated like a startup, but were maybe, like, 10 plus years in. Some more late stage startup, but still operating like an earlier stage startup, right? So, at the cybersecurity special services company, I actually started with doing learning and engagement.
So, I was thrown in to put together an organizational strategy for learning. So started there, was able to do a lot of really cool things there. I had a lot of safe space to fail, which I very much appreciated. So, that's where I was able to do more of those design elements and then move to the development because I was a team of one, right? So, I really had to bridge in both design and development and then it got bought by a much larger company.
I really love small to midsize companies and getting bought by a company that was 70 plus thousand people just, wasn't as much my vibe. So, from there, actually went to a startup. But what was interesting was the parent company, again, operated more like a late stage startup. So, I got a little bit of that, designing their global engagement strategy.
And then, with the startup, that was really my jump into org design. I had seen so many challenges in my previous companies and had always said, "Why didn't we solve for this before it came to this?" So for instance, having a reduction in force, like why didn't we do strategic workforce planning? So we wouldn't necessarily be in this place. And I think a lot of companies are seeing— during the pandemic, there was this, kind of, hiring spree. Everyone was really excited, the economy was going one way and the talent market had been flipped on its head. Hiring all these people and then suddenly, having to let go of a lot of people.
So, how can we solve for those types of things as much as possible? We know we live in a world where things are rapidly changing, but I do think there's a way to strategically design. So, that way, you don't have as much of those problems in the future.
So, with the startup, I really had a lot of free reign to put together what we believed was a really great employee experience. So, coming from that mindset, it's interesting that culture is, I feel like come a little bit late to the game when we're talking about org design. I've always designed with culture in mind. That's just how I've always approached my work. So, from the startup, I actually did a little bit of a career transition. I went to change management consulting. I did that for Workday implementations and the thing about Workday for anyone familiar is you do have to actually start with design. Because the way that, Workday operates, your design has to actually match it because it's all about centralization, shared services model. So, there's a lot of design piece in that. And I would sometimes support the strategy side of things. .Very, very large organizations because Workday— usually, you're dealing with a little bit larger organizations.
And then from there, actually, because I was so involved in their DEI efforts, I became their global head of DEI, the first ever person in that position in the company. My undergrad and graduate degrees are African American studies. So, my lens comes from understanding racial dynamics, understanding equity. I've always been a systems thinker and [where] I was able to really apply that was in that particular role.
So, really blew up a lot of our different systems to try to mitigate those inequities, mitigate biases. So, I know I didn't directly answer around org design, specifically, but it's been really a journey where every single role has led me to have this well-shaped look at org design.
And where I'm at now— so I founded a company called Culture Elevation Consulting. And, it's funny because sometimes I get the reaction that people think it's going to be me coming in and wanting to do all these warm and fuzzy things and parties and engagement activities.
But, I firmly believe that a well designed organization, first of all, has people in mind as it's being designed. But then, ultimately gives both a better customer experience and an employee experience. Happy customers, happy employees, happy customers, it all comes together. So, that's one side of things. And in particular, I especially helped technology-related professional services companies in that series C, late series B. Generally, that work can absolutely expand more broadly. And then, I also partner with a company called Intalegence. They serve lower to middle market private equity and venture capital. And I actually come in as their clients need org design and culture services. So, that is my very long story of how I am in org design.
[00:06:57] Tim Brewer: Now, I know you're also an adjunct professor in Chicago. How do you find that? I assume that's like lecturing where you get to share and help students. What's that been like? I've always wanted— I've done an MBA and always thought, I don't know if I ever want to go further and study more. But I know you've taken the lunge. Tell us about that and what are you working on? And clearly passionate about it to spend the time investing there.
[00:07:23] Alix Prassis: Sure. So, it's interesting. Back when I was an undergraduate, towards my last semester, I had this revelation that I wanted to be a professor. I had these really incredible professors in undergraduate. I love teaching. It's just in my nature. So, that's why I went to get my master's. But, while I was getting my master's and anyone in the U.S. can empathize with this, student loans were piling up and I didn't know if the academic world was for me. I was back and forth on that. I finished grad school in late 2008. So, it was quite a long journey before I got back into the academic world. So, 2022 is when I decided to apply for a PhD program in organizational leadership. And then, through that program, I was just talking with my professors and they had some courses in the master's program that they felt like I would be a perfect fit to teach. We are very big on the scholar practitioner lens at The Chicago School. They want people who are working full time who are in, really in the business, right? Versus students going full time, measuring, looking at the more theory, academic— we do that too. But, their students really love when people have that real world experience.
I thoroughly enjoyed that, I'm teaching a course this semester and it just fills me up so much to give back to the students and just help them open their eyes and think like IO psychologists. I have an example in my last class— it's actually managing organizational diversity. And, someone was mentioning, "No, but this is how you need to navigate, corporate America, this is what I was taught." So, they understand all that. But as IO psychologist, I want you to imagine what could be a better world of work, right? What could be the systems, the structure that actually will lead to— people from marginalized groups, especially right— not having to navigate in a very specific way to get to the higher level. So, just getting them to think differently is just really exciting to me.
[00:09:29] Tim Brewer: Very cool. Very cool. Alix, in the work that you do with leaders— particularly now in your consulting role and previously where you were in organizations providing support to all those different functions you've been in— you've had such a diverse experience. What are the things that you saw as the symptoms of not getting your structure right in an organization. And how did you help the leaders when they're like, "Oh no, we should just do this thing." How do you help them see past just whatever was in front of them, to see it as a more systematic problem that could be solved with— I think you used the word— I actually, I don't know if you said it, but you implied it like, "Hey, we can be proactive rather than reactive in this situation rather than having to do riffs constantly." I think you talked about doing workforce planning as an example. What symptoms did you help them see as org design problems that they may have just seen as, like, everyday problems in their organization? And how do we help people that are listening to the podcast look at their organization and go, "Oh, maybe I've got an org design problem that I'm looking at.
[00:10:37] Alix Prassis: Yeah, it's interesting. So, I think there are the very straightforward ones. Like, lack of role clarity, decisions not being made in an efficient way, decisions not being in a way that really enables the customer support team or that client experience, that employee experience.
One of the biggest things I find, though, as a symptom— and my alarm bells go off when I hear it is, " Oh, that's that way because of that person." Or, " The culture of that particular department". And just siloing off or just silos in general. It can absolutely be an indication of a gap in strategic organizational design.
One of my expertise is in succession planning. And I find that leaders often want to design around a person versus really thinking about, what are the strategic roles? How are we thinking about those? It's tough in the startup world, especially, right? Because there's a couple of things going on. A lot of times, founders, executives want to reward loyalty, and that's not a bad thing. But, as I like to say, what got you here won't get you there. So, the thing is, if we want the same people, that's okay, but they need to be willing to evolve with the business. So, that kind of startup builder mindset is a bit different than a flourish mindset. Really moving to that place where it's, yes, we're still putting out fires all the time, but still, like running at the speed of light because it is the startup world, but we can take a beat . We can take a step back and actually think about this a little bit differently.
So, that's one of the biggest things I hear, is really just blaming it on a specific department, specific people versus taking a step back and actually taking accountability as an organization. It doesn't mean that we eliminate individual accountability, but as I even think about the small scale things like looking at the systems that contribute to a less than ideal employee experience or systems that contribute to a less than ideal customer experience or just, directly impact the bottom line because of the inefficiencies. So often, it is because no one's really taken a step back to say, " We can do this differently and we can work together, better, in order to facilitate the collaboration that we say we're all about and take that organizational accountability" versus, "Oh, it's that person's problem. Oh, they won't listen." Get everyone in a room, let's talk it out. I promise it's not as scary as it sounds, but that's one of the biggest things I see.
[00:13:13] Tim Brewer: Yeah, that's a really good point. You end up designing an organization around the, kind of, lowest common denominators rather than designing an organization to meet its strategy or where it's needed to build. Another question leading on from that. So, when you are sitting down, maybe talking a leader through that, they've said to you, "Oh, no, that's— you know, we've got these people here, they've been here for a long time. This is the way it's always been." And they're saying— your flags, like red flags, red flags. What is your advice to them from an IO perspective, when they're looking at— they've waited until there's an existential problem, like maybe a really serious business performance problem, or they've been building the organization around a handful of people that's now causing really great talent to start leaving, and the board or their investors, or they have identified, "We have this problem." They haven't yet seen that the problem is that they have built the organization around people that may not be able to go on that journey to the next stage. What is your advice sitting with those leaders, helping them navigate those first couple of steps? Like, where do you even have them start? They're just looking at a wall of problems. They got a wall of everyday problems happening in there, their leadership life. How do you help them through the first couple of steps to see what's really going on in their organization? Like, the kind of reality.
[00:14:34] Alix Prassis: Yeah. And I will say it doesn't happen in just one conversation. It's about building trust, building the relationship because what you're doing essentially is uncovering, most likely, blind spots. So, that takes some time, that takes some additional conversations. I would love to be able to say, one conversation, everyone knows exactly what to do—
[00:14:56] Tim Brewer: Mic drop.
[00:14:57] Alix Prassis: Right, mic drop, let's go.
[00:14:59] Tim Brewer: Yeah.
[00:14:59] Alix Prassis: No, but I think, first of all, hearing the founder, there may be things that they're thinking about that they haven't shared or they're thinking from a different lens or they just haven't truly dug in. They haven't had a minute to really think about it. So, just asking open ended questions like, "Oh what makes you think that it was, that it's this particular issue? You know, you mentioned that we're not hitting the sales targets and you feel like it's because we need a particular background. Like, we need specific salespeople that have that background and, absolutely they're going to be the ones to solve all our problems." And it's digging into that a little bit more. " Okay. Like, what makes you think that?" Because a lot of times, people base things on just what they believe is common sense logic versus actually looking at the data, right? "Okay. Let's look at your sales team, right? Let's look at the backgrounds. Let's look at who's been successful. A lot of times it's not the people with the background that you think is successful, right? It's actually looking at competency. So that's where you can back into thinking about competency modeling or what are you role modeling as an executive, as the behaviors that result in being successful. Is that something that is in alignment with what the customers want, or are we really diving into the right market? Like, do we need to think about that piece a little bit differently? So, it's really just having those open ended conversations and just digging. And, it's all about them coming to the solution on their own. I am there in a lot of ways when I'm working with leaders as a coach. Now it's not— I don't have a service as an executive coach, but part of what I do with org design and development is actually making sure that I fully understand the concerns, what keeps the founder, the executives up at night, and hearing from multiple perspectives. And I think the middle management is often a lost level there because they're getting feedback from both sides. They're getting feedback from the more frontline employees and they're getting feedback from the ones above them. So, a lot of times they have really interesting perspective that nobody's really thought about. So also tapping into that. As far as delineation of who I speak to when, really depends on the organization. I start with the CEO, start to have those conversations. And that kind of leads me to, like, okay, who else do I need to pull into this conversation? But, in some, it really is like, let's make sure we understand what's specific to your organization. Are there things across the industry that I can give insight on and I can give advice on? Absolutely. But, at the end of the day, it's really important that we are thinking of this particular organization— it's unique differentiator in its own space. And making sure that we're serving that particular company the best we can. Because what I love about best practices, and I've always said, the only best practice is the best practice for your particular organization, right?
Like, you have to make sure that it's going to fulfill what makes you the differentiator. It's going fufill what makes you have a great place to work and a great place for clients that they want to come to.
[00:18:22] Tim Brewer: That's true. What makes them unique? Alix, there's probably a good segue for our audience, everyday leaders that have come across this podcast and like, "Oh, hey, they are some of the issues that I have in my organization." How did they know that they're a good fit or a unique fit to your style of work or to the work you're doing, either in your study or in your consulting business? How do we know they're a good fit for what you're doing at the moment? And right to contact you and be like, "Hey, Alix, I've got the issue you talked about, I need some help in what I'm doing." What's a good fit for your style of work and advisory.
[00:19:00] Alix Prassis: Yeah, I think, probably the stage of the business is helpful. I'm all about addressing growing pains. A lot of companies, when they think about scaling, they just think about hiring more people. So, how do you scale with intention? So a company that's really looking to do that, a company that have their targets for where they're trying to go. So, I wouldn't be the person to come in and do their entire business strategy. I'm the person that comes in and says, "Here's what the strategy looks like, once you have those targets for your business, this is how we make the structure, the systems, and the leadership align with where you're trying to go. We look at leadership job analyses, we look at key strategic roles, we look at, obviously, the structure itself. So, thinking about centralization versus decentralization. A lot of times when I come in, they have these regional groups, but then they're also functional and everything is— they're trying to figure out, "I don't really know what EMEA is doing or APAC is doing, but I don't really know what to do about it."
So like, how do we bring that all together? And I think it's just open to conversations. I am not— I get that, like, a lot of times, especially if you're working with founders, this is their baby. I am not trying to call anybody's baby ugly, right? Like, I want to work with you to keep what's unique about your organization, but make it better. And when it comes to leadership, we're going to talk about how we can make the leaders you have, better. And of course they can choose, if they don't align with where the company is going, but I'm going to come in there, you know, just say like, "Hey these are the gaps, let's talk about how we can address them, in a way that makes sense for your company.
And I think the other thing is, people get worried, especially if they're like, innovators, they're used to being able to just not have any kind of processes in place. I get that. I'm an innovator myself. I hate processes, which I know is like blasphemy from an org design and development person, right? But, I'm that person that I'm only going to recommend exactly what's needed for the foundation. I'm going to explain why it makes everything more efficient and actually enables innovation, enables the collaboration. So, I think that, as long as they're open to my style, I'm a direct communicator.
So I'm going to be very straightforward about what the gaps are, but I'm always going to listen. And it's never going to be me coming in and telling you— you're looking for someone to just bring you like a blanket proposal and say, " Oh yeah, these are the best practices across professional services. Here you go." I'm not the person. I'm that person that's going to work with you and partner with you, to make sure that whatever we do, it makes the most sense for your organization.
[00:21:41] Tim Brewer: Awesome. I was just going to touch on the industries that Alix has worked with, professional services, security services. Is that like manage service companies as well? Is that how you describe it in the US?
[00:21:52] Alix Prassis: So, I would say, technology services, right? But, it's really that professional services umbrella. They just all happen to be technology related. But really, professional services, management consulting, absolutely. All of that can be included in as far as my expertise. I do think, really any B2B technology, right? When you're thinking about the employees, when you're thinking about the structure, just knowing the technology side of things and what people are going to be looking for and just the profile of employees you're going to get, I'm very familiar with.
[00:22:22] Amy Springer: Alix, if it's okay, I'd love to have just a mini coaching session for our leaders that are listening. They agree with you that none of them like RIFs. They're all tired of RIFs. They want to have a healthy org design culture. "You know, I'm not ready for a consultant." What is one mindset shift that you would encourage them to all seek to have this more continuous approach to org design. Is there a skill you recommend, a mindset, a resource that they could engage with?
[00:22:55] Alix Prassis: I do think, Senge, I actually have it next to me, The Fifth Discipline, systems, thinking about systems in the organization, because a lot of times founders don't realize— they think that, "Oh, we don't have processes in general. We don't have systems, outside of, maybe, technology systems". But you do have systems, even if they're informal. So, being able to recognize those, I think is really important. But, I think the biggest thing is really just digging in. "Okay, so, you mentioned this is a challenge. Tell me more about that. Okay. You mentioned that you believe it's this. What makes you believe that?" Asking those critical thinking questions, asking themselves," Why do I believe that? Why am I thinking that way?" Especially, when you're moving a million miles a minute, as most people are in this world, you feel pressure to have all the answers and to just move forward. However— and I've experienced this— employees, managers, they're not expecting you to have all the answers. They just want you to be transparent and clear about where you're at.
So, accepting that you don't have all the answers. I feel like, too, a lot of times founders have that— almost a parent mentality, right? That they feel like they need to give the answers, that they need to have everything figured out and people get it. When you treat people like adults, they'll be adults, I firmly believe. So, just questioning that, "Why", getting multiple perspectives on an issue and being open to those perspectives. And recognizing when you don't need to be in the conversation. I'll just give a personal example. Because I am so direct and I can be rather, intense because I'm passionate about what I do. I will often remove myself from brainstorming conversations, as much as I love them and I will give the team the freedom to come up with what they believe the problems are. So, actually removing yourself a little bit and trusting your team. And then, when you're going through things, instead of, that "No, but", it's getting that, "Yes and", mentality.
You're like, "Let's talk through it. Let's— okay. You believe this is a challenge. What makes you think that way?" Instead of just shutting it down right away. It doesn't mean you need to be on board with everything the rest of your executives are saying, management, employees. But it is about getting those multiple perspectives. And, ultimately, people will feel more heard that way. And that's how you get better collaboration, in general. And that's how you'll be able to start to move towards addressing those challenges.
[00:25:33] Amy Springer: Amazing. So, Alix, quick summary, accepting what you don't know, being open minded, asking great questions.
[00:25:41] Alix Prassis: Yeah. And thinking from a systems perspective. Like, "What could be the bigger issue?" Versus, "It's this individual, or it's this group, you know, they're just going rogue." Like, how might it be part of a bigger issue?
[00:25:53] Tim Brewer: Awesome.
[00:25:54] Amy Springer: Thank you.
[00:25:55] Tim Brewer: Alix, thank you so much for joining us on the Org Design Podcast. It's been such a pleasure. As always, to all of our listeners, thank you for listening to another Org Design Podcast. We will see you soon. We're going to have, in the show notes, a link to Alix's profile. So, if you want to follow up on any of her work or organization, you can find that . If you've got someone— and Alix this applies to you too— that you would love to come on the show, please, by all means, shoot through a suggestion to us. We would love to have those interesting topical org designers or people in and around the work around org design come and share their stories on the show like Alix did today. Alix, thank you. Amy, thank you. Over and out for tonight. See you everyone.
